Saturns have "Black Boxes"

Anony00GT · 03-13-2003, 03:18 AM

Apparently so do all other GM vehicles. This sucks, complete violation of privacy. I'm going to look into disabling mine.

http://www.seniormag.com/headlines/blackboxcars.htm

far_from_sane · 03-13-2003, 03:25 AM

I didnt even know that had those in cars! or even my car that sux well I know not tolie if I get into a accident!

Matt · 03-13-2003, 03:25 AM

Woo hoo! I dont' have one.

Just '96 and up saturns and GM cars.

Mike 94sc2 · 03-13-2003, 04:44 AM

I call BS. The only cars I have ever heard had those are some rental cars. Other cars might have the data stored in the cars computer but they do not have a transmitter. The only way to get the info is to pull it from the computer with a scan tool.

Mike

monkeyracing · 03-13-2003, 06:43 AM

I'm going to play devil's advocate on this one, for the purpose of raising questions:

The question is who would want to or could monitor millions of cars all at once? There is the potential for abuse, but I don't know if it's really a good idea to get apprehensive yet. As it is they only record conditions for 5 seconds before an incident, and the data is only transmitted if something happens. If you happen to be doing something stupid in those 5 seconds, maybe it should be recorded. This data could also be used in your favour, not just against you, as some paranoids might suggest.

Here's a thought: Are the blackboxes on aircraft an invasion of privacy? If not, why? After a crash we're all clamoring to find out what happened. Would it be neccesarily bad if this data was available on a personal level as well?

As for the datamining possibilities, we're all getting data mined right now, when we go to the store, and if we have cellphones.

The only issue I have regards the possibility of the police getting even lazier and convincing the govt. that it should be legal for them to issue tickets through the mail based on tracking data. I hate photo radar as it is, and this would really piss me off.

Anyway, if you want to figure out how to disable this thing, find out how it transmits (what kind of antenna) and disable that. Chances are this thing is very integrated with the car's ECM, and totally killing it would probably kill the car too.

Jim

Kyle · 03-13-2003, 07:22 AM

No one is monitering what you are doing in your car. If you read carefully you'll see that is a development by ford used only in poliece cars now. The car is not reporting anything about itself to an external recipiant. All that is in the car right now is a recorder that records current conditions and keeps it for a limited time. If there is an impact the current data does not change and they can get that info off of it. I don't see how determining the cause of an accident and/or death, is an invasion of privacy.

miamisl2 · 03-13-2003, 08:02 AM

i agree with kyle, that thing only monitors certain conditions of your vehicle and can only store up to 5 seconds...if theres an accident, it stops recording and stores that previous information, and its not being sent out to anyone...it would be a another story if this was recording your conversations or track where you are, but its not

personally i think if this device really does exist, that its pretty cool

Anony00GT · 03-13-2003, 12:55 PM

[quote="Mike 94sc2"]I call BS. The only cars I have ever heard had those are some rental cars. Other cars might have the data stored in the cars computer but they do not have a transmitter. The only way to get the info is to pull it from the computer with a scan tool.[\quote]

Quote:

BOSTON -- When you say "black box", the crash data recorder retrieved after airline disasters immediately comes to mind.
So, it may come as a surprise to learn that millions of cars and trucks are also equipped with a similar device imbedded deep in the airbag module

NewsCenter 5's Jorge Quiroga said that while these "black boxes" were designed to monitor vehicle safety, criminal charges against a Beverly, Mass., woman are now testing another use for this device.

With 5 prior sur-chargeable accidents on her record, few will deny that police should have been watching 33-year-old Michelle Zimmerman closely.

But what has everyone's attention is her sixth accident, and the "crash-data" obtained from a small 4-inch square silver box, when no one was watching.

In early January, Zimmerman was driving her GMC Yukon when it slid into a tree on Argilla Road in Ipswich, Mass. Her passenger, Kenneth Carlson, was killed on impact.

Last month, Zimmerman was charged with vehicular homicide by negligence and speeding.

"This will be a hotly contested case, she has pleaded not guilty," defense attorney Robert Weiner said.

Initial speculation blamed snowy conditions for the collision. And the original accident reconstruction showed Zimmerman was traveling about 40 mph -- the posted speed limit.

But the vehicular homicide charge Zimmerman now faces rests on the evidence police found days after the accident; after police obtained this search warrant to extract the so called black box from her mangled sport utility vehicle.

A "black box", like those found in airplanes to retrieve crash data, was attached to the airbags in her Yukon.

Zimmerman said that she had no clue her Yukon was equipped with a black box.

But the 'read-out' from the recorder, obtained by NewsCenter Five, gives critical data about speed, breaking and seat belt use. It shows Zimmerman was traveling as fast as 58 mph -- seconds before the crash.

She claims it's an invasion of privacy.

"It's almost like a government agent sitting in the back seat of the car," Weiner said.

Originally developed to monitor racecars during crashes and make them safer, the technology is helping make all cars safer too.

Nearly 25 million late model vehicles have black boxes. It's news to most drivers, and surprisingly, to some dealers.

Others weren't aware police can also get their hands on the crash data.

"They know the air bag module exists. They just didn't know that the conditions under which the airbag was being deployed were available," Muzi Chevrolet spokesman Glenn Cammerata said.

Zimmerman's lawyer argues that under Massachusetts law, the hidden recording could be illegal.

"You have to have two-party consent," Weiner said.

The Essex County district attorney declined to comment, but others said that the black box is fair game.

"First of all, its not the government putting in something recording information that is then used against you like in a wiretap situation," Middlesex County District Attorney Martha Coakley said.

But even if legal, is this technology invaluable in developing safer cars, reliable enough in a specific accident.

"I haven't found one case in Massachusetts that this technology has been approved by the court," Weiner said.

It is a precedent setting case all drivers should be watching. If convicted, Zimmerman faces up to 2.5 years in jail.

She wasn't driving any rental car.

Anony00GT · 03-13-2003, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeyracing

I'm going to play devil's advocate on this one, for the purpose of raising questions:

The question is who would want to or could monitor millions of cars all at once? There is the potential for abuse, but I don't know if it's really a good idea to get apprehensive yet. As it is they only record conditions for 5 seconds before an incident, and the data is only transmitted if something happens. If you happen to be doing something stupid in those 5 seconds, maybe it should be recorded. This data could also be used in your favour, not just against you, as some paranoids might suggest.

Here's a thought: Are the blackboxes on aircraft an invasion of privacy? If not, why? After a crash we're all clamoring to find out what happened. Would it be neccesarily bad if this data was available on a personal level as well?

As for the datamining possibilities, we're all getting data mined right now, when we go to the store, and if we have cellphones.

The only issue I have regards the possibility of the police getting even lazier and convincing the govt. that it should be legal for them to issue tickets through the mail based on tracking data. I hate photo radar as it is, and this would really piss me off.

Anyway, if you want to figure out how to disable this thing, find out how it transmits (what kind of antenna) and disable that. Chances are this thing is very integrated with the car's ECM, and totally killing it would probably kill the car too.

Jim

The boxes don't transmit, they record data. That data then becomes available to any law enforcement officer in the country. Let me educate you on something we have here that you do not have up there in Canada, it's called the 4th Amendment:

Quote:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

They have no right to access that information in my car without a proper warrant. I don't care how you slice it, that is a search of my car. If they think that the crash is just cause, then they have the duty and responsibility to go to a judge, present him with the evidence, and let him decide if a warrant is necessary.

The difference with airlines is that there is no expectation of privacy in an airplane cockpit. The airplane is owned by the airline company, not the pilot. There is, however, expectation of privacy inside my own car that I bought, just as there is in privately owned airplanes.

Joeybagodonuts · 03-13-2003, 01:46 PM

hold on, except for rental cars i call BS, i have tore down more saturns, and put them together, and my friends at pro power, then anyone, airbags, crashs AND im a court appointed and accepted expert in 3 countys, 2 states, in accident reconstruction, how cars perform in collsions, automotive fraud, engine performance, now, you tell me, wouldnt the court experts, NOT the po po be the ones going for those boxs, have i EVER seen an insurance agent in my yard collecting data?! hell no
yes, they are out there in SOME vehicles, and LOTS of rental cars, but ALL SATURNS/ guess what? raise the fuggin BS flag and tell that newspaper editor to call me, a real expert on crashs and saturns...cause they got their info all messed up, BS BS BS BS BS BS .....