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Old 01-05-2006, 12:31 PM   #1
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Default Read This First! Compilation Of Common Car Audio Info.

Since so many questions are asked repeatedly so often, I feel it may be easier to simply compile a whole boatload of information into one useful post.

1) As a general rule of thumb, if you begin adding wires to the positive terminal of your battery (such as power wires to amplifiers, fog lights, etc.), add an additional ground wire. This allows electricity to flow more evenly through the entire circuit. It will help prevent your headlights from dimming among other things.

2) Keep power wires and signal wires (RCA's) separated as far as feasible. If the two must intersect, try for a 45* to 90* angle. This will help prevent alternator whine/interference.

Originally Posted by satyllac On Subsonic Filters.
If your referring to a subsonic filter on an amplifier it does as follows:

If you have the filter set to 18 Hz, it will not play any frequencies lower than 18 Hz. Sometimes the amplifier will have a set-frequency filter that can be toggled on or off, but not adjusted. In this case, refer to your amp's user manual to determine what frequencies are filtered out.

The reasoning behind a subsonic filter is to avoid damage to drivers (subwoofers) when used in ported/vented enclosures. When diving into the very-low frequency ranges, non-sealed boxes tend to give poor suspension, allowing the drivers to bottom out easier than an equally designed sealed enclosure.

At least, that's what I learned...
Originally Posted by satyllac On Charging Capacitors.
I'd recommend charging it.

All you need is:
1) 12V source.
2) Multimeter (unless it has a built-in voltage meter).
3) Resistor (little Radio-Shack one).

With your cap grounded, measure the voltage between the two posts on the cap. At first, it should read very low, like 0V or 0.1V or something.

Connect the resistor to the 12V wire. You can hold it with your hand or twist/tape it or whatever.

Touch the other end of the resistor to the (+) terminal on the capacitor.

Keep an eye on the voltage. When it gets in the high 11's, go ahead and remove the resistor from the wire. Directly connect the wire to the terminal.
Originally Posted by AudioFreak On Amplification Of Speakers.
Some components are designed specifically to be amplified, and then some are perfectly fine running off the deck. For example, the Infinity Kappa/Kappa Perfect series has to be amplified but the Infinity Reference series could run perfectly fine off a deck. Most components will run decently off a deck but the amp is what will really make them shine.
Originally Posted by DBZJr On Amplification Of Speakers
Honestly, any speaker will run with any amount of power. It's only recommended to amplify them, to get the most performance. If you just want plain music, your deck will be just fine.
Originally Posted by Twztd_Ion On Fiberglassing.
Originally Posted by AudioFreak On How To Prevent Your Headlights From Dimming During Heavy Electrical Load.
A capacitor will NOT solve your problem.
Capacitors are too often used when people think they will stop the dimming lights. The purpose of a capacitor in an audio system is to smooth out the voltage curve during high output times (a series of quick bass beats for example). When the amp draws a lot of power to handle these high output points, the alternator can't keep up and power has to be drawn from the battery. The capacitor steps in and releases it's quick bursts of energy (remember a capacitor can be charged and discharged EXTREMELY quickly) and it helps to smooth out the rough spikes in voltage.
A capacitor might lessen the dimming lights problem but it will by no means get rid of the issue. Try upgrading your electrical system (larger and better quality alternator/battery/engine ground wires) and if the problem continues then you should look in to a new alternator. By the way if you decide to get a new alternator right off the bat, you will need to upgrade your electrical system because the new alternator will be more demanding.
Originally Posted by AudioFreak On Speaker Recommendations.
Yeah man they're 6.5s. I can't remember ever having a depth issue on the SLs, but if it is a problem you can always use a small 6.5 spacer (we sell them at Best Buy and Circuit City carries them too). You could very well run into a problem if you tried to put some Infinity Kappas in the front too... the magnets on the Kappas and Kappa Perfects are rediculuous. Stay away from Rockford Fosgate - the mounting depth on those things is huge also. I'd recommend maybe some Alpine Type-R 6.5s or just run some cheaper components. You could go with the Infinity Reference componenets, and those would match up nicely with the Infinity Kappas you have in the back. Also the mounting depth on the Infinity Reference series is decently shallow.
This, of course, is all assuming that mounting depth will be an issue. If it's not then hell buy some Kappas =).
If you DO use a spacer, make sure you purchase some Dynamat (you don't need much.. again Best Buy has a little speaker pack that would be perfect). You want to put the dynamat in between the spacer and the door so that you don't get any vibrations. If you don't do this it can cause the speaker to get a "fluttery" noise.
Originally Posted by AudioFreak On Subwoofer Enclosures.
Well if you were to get a ported box that was built correctly, it would absolutely destroy that bandpass box.
Bandpass is loud at a select few frequencies, but it sounds like trash. Look into getting a nice custom ported box for those subs and you'll love the outcome even more than what you have now.
Originally Posted by pieszbob1, cbell97sl2, and satyllac On Fixing Rattles.
Originally Posted by redturtle98 On Fiberglass: Cloth Vs. Mat.
more thickness with the matt and holds more resin. easier to manage irregular surfaces. husband says not to use the cloth. (he works at a car stereo place)
Originally Posted by satyllac On Speaker Types.
Three-way coaxial speaker:
-Woofer (6.5" or 6.75" in the S-Series case).
-Attached Tweeter.
-Attached "Super"-Tweeter.

Two-way coaxial speaker:
-Attached Tweeter.

Two-way component speaker:
-Separate Tweeter (often can be attached to the woofer).

I'll agree with Tristan that three-ways do suck. The secondary tweeter only intereferes and can cause phasing issues.

Overall, the lower number of drivers, the better. Two tweeters (left and right highs), two woofers (left and right mids), and one woofer (lows). Since you only have what you need, there's not as much room for error in phasing and distortion. The only reason you'd want to add more speakers is if you want more channels involved (surround sound), or if you're wanting to move more air (SPL competitions).

The reason I said to move the three-ways to the front is as easy as this:
Some companies have the idea that "more = better". Sony, Pioneer, and other Wal-Mart brand speakers all make their two-ways the low-end of the spectrum. Low-end = low power = sucks bad. They make the three-ways (or four or five) the higher end. High-end = higher power = doesn't suck as bad. Thus, put the more powerful speakers in the front, and give them the power they need.

If you don't have people riding in the back, ditch the rear speakers entirely, that's what I did in my SC2.
Originally Posted by satyllac On Speaker Types.
On the subject of the Pioneer speakers:
The more "ways" a speaker is, usually the less accurate it will be and less pleasing it will sound. Anything over a two-way is typically overkill and will only lead to colliding soundwaves and distortion. However... Since some companies will make the two-ways their lower-end product, in order to get a more powerful speaker (from the same company at a close price), one has to "downgrade" to the three-ways or even four-ways. This is the case with Pioneer. The thing you're really going to be wanting to scope out is the RMS power of the speakers, make sure they're at the very least 40 watts.
Originally Posted by satyllac On Basic Car Audio Knowledge And Safety.
I'm sorry, but this is serious...

If you don't know where to find the firewall... You should really grab a book on cars... You seriously need to research some things before you attempt doing them, you could be injured or even killed if you do something wrong. Once you figure out how a car works (mainly the electrical system), then move onto how to hook up your radio...

1) Save up the money, suck it up, and pay a real installer to do the job.

2) Have a friend do the job. You watch very carefully, ask any questions you may have, and don't touch anything unless instructed to.

If you need to know your speaker wire colors, read both my stickies at the top of the Audio section. I have all eight wire colors listed (yes, each speaker uses two wires).
Originally Posted by Cool1Net6 On Basic Car Audio Knowledge And Safety.
When I decided to set up my system it would be the first time I really modified my car. I helped a friend put an amp in his car, and I wanted to do the install myself, mainly to save cash, but it wouldnt make sense if I ended up destoying my car in the process. So, I sat down at my computer and researched EVERYTHING, from speaker wire colors, speaker size, how to uninstall the stock radio, a new radio harness, trunk dimensions, how to take apart the car, best place to pass through firewall, wiring diagrams, shipped parts in advance, etc. In fact, I did so much research that the hardest part was connecting the amp wire to the battery. (That took 3 people)

Anyway, we are not trying to be mean and condescending, we just honestly feel you need to do a little more research before you start on this project. Even though someone else who knows this kind of install is with you, it would be nice if you know enough about your own car to help them out.
Originally Posted by satyllac On Basic Car Audio Knowledge.
1) Get a quality amp. If you can't get one now, save up and wait. A low-quality amp is only asking for disappointment. If done incorrectly, a low-output amplifier could easy damage perfectly good subs, thus making you spend more money.

2) You're going to need at least 8 AWG if you plan on running any more than 400 watts RMS, I'd actually recommend going as big as 4 AWG. 10 AWG is just ridiculous.

3) Generic bandpass boxes usually sound horrible. It might be neat to see your chrome baskets and such through the thin plexiglass, but they'll sound disgusting.
Originally Posted by satyllac On Stuffing Subwoofer Enclosures.
Don't bother with the blankets and pillows... Go to Wal-Mart and buy some "Polyfil" or something similar from the arts and crafts department.

If you've got a transmission line box (which I highly doubt), don't bother with it.

The stuffing is supposed to act as a sound absorption material and reduce resonance inside the enclosure. You can also paint the inside of your box with latex paint to help a tiny bit.

Just leave enough room around the sub to let it "breathe", give it about 2" or more of airspace on each side, stuff the rest of the box (with the exception of ports if your box has any).

It probably won't help a huge amount, but if you need a reason to buy something for your setup, go for it.
Originally Posted by satyllac On General Car Audio.
1) I wouldn't recommend buying any subs from Wal-Mart. The only things I'd even think about buying from there would be a Pioneer head unit, wires, the best Pioneer speakers they carry, or a Pioneer amplifier.

2) You don't need a head unit with RCA outputs to run an amplifier. They make line-level converters for just that reason.

3) The wire in a RF kit does differ quite a bit from a same-size kit from Scosche (not really a bad brand though). Number of strands, material used, flexibility, etc. I'd still take the less expensive wire though.

To use an amplifier you need:
1) Power.
2) Ground.
3) Remote turn-on power. (At least on every amp I've seen.)
4) Input signal.
5) Outputs of some sort.

Most all amps these days have RCA inputs. Some have additional "speaker-level" inputs.

For those of us who prefer to not upgrade the stock deck, or are unable to, companies such as Peripheral make nice little boxes that convert the speaker-level (high-side) signal of the speaker-wires to a low-level, lower-voltage signal commonly used with RCAs.
Originally Posted by satyllac On Accessing Your Rear Deck.
After folding down the seats you'll see that where the seatbelts go through the deck cover, there's a small slit. Run the belt through that slit to get the seatbelts free. From there, gently fold the entire deck cover down the center and pull it out one side at a time. Installation is just the reverse.

Don't worry about the cover too much, it's not all too fragile and since it's a weird carpeting it doesn't show wrinkles easily.

Removal of the C-pillars isn't required, but if it makes you feel better, go for it.
Originally Posted by satyllac On Subwoofer Wiring And It's Effect On Sound Quality.
Going by the following information...
JL 12W6:
300W RMS, Dual Voice Coil (6 Ohms each).

With dual 6 ohm coils, you'll be able to run in the following configurations:
1) Full series. 6+6+6+6= 24 Ohms.
2) Full parallel. 6/4= 1.5 Ohms.
3) Combination series/parallel. 3+3 or 12/2= 6 Ohms.

What you'll be wanting in an amplifier is as follows:
It should be stable down to 2 ohms or less (means you're getting a quality product). You'll want something that can push your subs with power to spare... Aim for something around 1.5x what your subs are rated for (this will allow you to run the amplifier nearly stress-free). Your subs are rated for 300W apiece, so that's 600W for two of them... Look around for an amplifier that can push around 900 watts RMS into a 2 Ohm load. I'd personally look around for a mono-block, but you can go with a two-channel as well (they're usually more common).

Bridging an amplifier only applies to multi-channel amps. Bridging is basically combining two channels to produce one stronger channel. When bridging an amplifier, make sure the resistance is high enough so that the amplifier won't overheat and fry.

When an amplifier says "60 Watts @ 4 Ohms", it just means it can push 60 watts through a resistance of 4 ohms. Less resistance, more power. Typically, you'll see power ratings get close to double as the resistance is cut in half. 60W@4 Ohms, 120W@2 Ohms, etc. So, the lower the resistance, the louder it gets... Sounds like you should run it at the lowest possible resistance, right? Wrong... Read on to find out why.

You'll be able to run your system at 1.5, 6, or 24 ohms. The lower the resistance, the sloppier the signal gets, and the more stress it puts on your entire system (alternator, amplifier, subs). I personally wouldn't want to run anything lower than 2 ohms. I fried one of the voltage rails on a nice 800W mono amp by running it at 1.3 ohms... The higher the resistance, the better sounding it gets, but it also gets quieter. I wouldn't recommend going over 10 ohms unless you're an audiophile or something.
Originally Posted by satyllac On 'Why Does My Amplifier Keep Shutting Off?'
Problem: Your power/ground wire is too small, you're restricting voltage to the amp, causing it to go into standby/protection mode.
Resolution: Go down a step or two in wire gauge. E.g.: If you're using 8 AWG, go to 4.

Problem: Your head unit isn't able to put out enough current to power both amp's remote turn-ons.
Resolution: Get a constant 12V supply (14 AWG or larger wire), connect it to terminal 30 on an automotive relay (can be found at Radio Shack, look for SPDT or SPST). Connect another wire to terminal 87, and hook that up to both amp turn-on's. Run your head unit's turn-on lead to terminal 85. Ground terminal 86. Leave terminal 87a open, or cover it up somehow (blank female disconnect) to prevent shorting out on anything.
What this will do is as follows: When your head unit turns on, it will put out a voltage, this will cause the relay to send the input 12 volts to both your amplifiers' turn-ons and power them up.

Problem: You're running the amplifier at too-low an impedance, this causes it to go into standby/protect mode.
Resolution: Run your speakers like they should be, if that's not enough, run them in series (try to keep the left and right channels separate... mono doesn't sound nearly as good as stereo :P).
Originally Posted by satyllac On How To Test To See If Your Alternator Is Dead.
If you've got *any* power wire that "sparked up and burned", it's almost a givene that you have a short. Take any piece of wire and rub it up against semi-sharp metal for a few months... The metal will eat right through the wire's outer coating and reach the conductive guts in no time. I'm really hoping you ran it (the power wire) through a grommet...

Before suspecting an alternator, go ahead and clean up your wire terminals on the battery. Touch them up with a small wire brush and give a good tightening just to make sure they've a solid connection.

Then prior to starting the car, take a multimeter and measure the voltage across your two battery terminals. Now attempt to start the car, when (if) it starts, measure the voltage across them again, should be somewhere between 13.3 and 13.9. Have a friend hold the multimeter and tell you if the voltage goes up or down when you twist the throttle body (or you can do both if you're able to). The higher the RPM, the higher the voltage. If the voltage doesn't go up at all when the car is running compared to when it's off, you most likely have a bad alternator. However, there should've been a handy little light that looks like a red battery illuminated on your dashboard...
Originally Posted by satyllac On 'How Do I Improve My Amp's Ground?'
Get an appropriate length of the correct gauge wire, crimp on a connector of some sort (ring terminal preffered for ease of use). Get yourself a couple star washers, place one on each side of the ring. Put a self-tapping screw through the hole in the ring. Drill that sucker into the spot where you previously removed the paint.
Originally Posted by satyllac On Porting A Sealed Subwoofer Box.
You could port your currently sealed box. However, usually, ported boxes are of a significantly larger volume than their respective sealed boxes. So if you might want to extend one side (or a few) of the box to add some volume to it.

As for what to use, I've seen PVC pipe, paper-towel rolls wrapped in fiberglass, and there are also pre-made ports available at most privately owned/operated car audio shops.

In short... It would be easiest if you just built a new box that was designed to be ported.
Originally Posted by satyllac On 'How Big Should My Wires Be?'
When it comes to wiring, you've got a few different things that need to be accounted for...
1) Current capacity (how much electricity the wire can flow).
2) Voltage drop (will you really be getting 12V at the other end?).
3) Price (how much is this huge cable going to cost?)
4) Looks (oooh, pretty colors).

Now then: You've got your two-channel amp now... It's got an average current draw of... Let's say, 15 amps in your configuration with the sub (bridged at 4 ohms I'm assuming). Now you've got plans add a second amplifier, but not one quite as big as your current one. However, just in case you decide to "go big or go home", let's assume you'll get one the same size as your current two-channel amplifier. So now we've got 30 continous amps being drawn.

We'll use this link to help us out... Now you're going to want a wire that can easily handle your power demands, and then some. Common wire gauges that can be found for car-audio are: 10, 8, 6, 4, 2, 0 and less. Overall, I most commonly see 8 and 4 AWG.

Alrighty, so we're planning on having at least 30 continuous amps running through the cable at any given time... Looking down the chart on the link I posted, we see that 7 AWG wire can handle 30 continuous amps for power transmission. So, we've ruled out 8, it can only handle 24. Now, as I said before, you're going to want to overkill a bit when it comes to wiring. So, let's check out 6 AWG, it can handle 37 amps.

Now to check out voltage drop... We'll be using copper wire, 6 AWG, in a 12V DC system, approximately 18 feet (go high with this estimate), and we'll have a constant draw of 30 amps. Now we see that the amplifier is only getting 11.5 volts... Personally, I'd want a bit less voltage drop. So now, let's bump it up a notch, and go for the next most common wire gauge... 4 AWG. Ahh, we only get a 0.3V drop, and the amp is getting a healthier 11.7V.

In short, I'd recommend buying 18' (maybe even 20', you could always install new ground cables on your battery [very good idea] Wink) of 4 AWG wire along with a 40 to 55 amp fuse.
Originally Posted by satyllac On Why Your Amplifier Should Put Out More Wattage Than What Your Sub/Subs Is/Are Rated For.
Typically I'd recommend a sub-to-amp power ratio of 1:1.5, meaning that if you've got a sub that can take 100 watts RMS, give it 150; a sub rated for 500 watts RMS, push it with 750.

For one, this will prevent you from stressing your amplifier since you won't be pushing it to it's limits as often (if at all).
Secondly, you'll be able to lower the gain on the amp, thus lowering the risk of clipping the signal from the amp to the sub (not only does it sound bad, but clipping is a *huge* factor when it comes to the lifespan and well-being of any audio driver). I'd much rather put a clean 100 watts through a 50 watt speaker, over a clipped signal at 50 watts.
Third, if you get a larger amplifier to begin with, you can always upgrade your subwoofer configuration without needing to get a better amplifier. All you'd have to do to adapt the amp to the new sub(s), is change the gain and/or crossover(s) a little (if at all).

As for being "too much", there's no such thing... You could hook an amp that provides 1000W RMS up to a sub that's rated for 100W RMS... All you'd need is to balance out the volumes and tweak the gains.

You can tone a powerful amplifier down, but you can't bump a weak amplifier up. There's *almost* never such a thing as an amp that's "too big" or "too powerful".

'Tis much better to have a larger amp and tone it down than to have a smaller amp and over-stress it.

There's not a gain control on an amp just to make it look fancy. You use the gains to tune in one or more amplifiers to the rest of your system. If one component is too loud for your preference, turn the gain down on that component's amplifier.

Here's a snippet of a PM I recently sent someone explaining the dangers of clipping.
Originally Posted by satyllac
However, there can be problems down the line with clipping. Say you've got an amplifier that's set up to amplify the signal by a factor of two. So... (Output Voltage) = (Input Voltage) * (2). Now, an amplifier is limited by it's output voltage rail... Let's say this amp has a rail with a max/min of +/- 20 volts. So... You input a signal of 5 volts, you get 10 volts out. You input 8 volts, you get 16 out. Input 10, 20 output... Now, you put 12 volts in... You can still only get 20 volts out. What happens to the rest of the soundwave? It gets "clipped" off at the crests/troughs. This turns a nice rounded off sound wave into a chopped-up square-wave mess, and is a major speaker-killer, since it leads to overheating of the voice coil. This is what happens when you set the gains on your amps too high. The "gain" control on an amplifier isn't a volume knob!

Now, there's also other kinds of distortion... One being over-powering. While over-powering a speaker isn't nearly as bad as giving it a clipped signal, over-powering still isn't a good thing. You'll usually be able to tell a driver is being over-excurted by 1) you hear a loud slapping noise, that's the suspension of the speaker bottoming out against the magnet structure. However, 2) Some speakers are designed so that the surround will tighten up before the coil touches anything. With these, you'll most likely hear a noticeable "flapping" sound when the cone is over-excurting.
Normal sound wave on a 30+ volt rail (imagine its more rounded):
0V. -.......\....../

Clipped sound wave on a 30 volt rail:
0V. -.......\....../

Same signal, run through an amp with only a 20 volt rail:
0V. -.......\....../

Instead of having a nice rounded-off sound wave, it creates somewhat of a square wave. Now at the peaks and troughs of these waves, the subwoofer is sitting there with a constant 20V running through it. Whenever it's got a constant voltage running through it, it's not moving anywhere. A speaker that doesn't move, but still has voltage running through it, is bound to overheat.
Originally Posted by satyllac On How To Primitively Set Gains
If you've got the amp bridged into the sub, it's running as best as it can. However, by cranking your gains to the max (I assume 0.3v is lowest voltage setting on your gain), and maxing out your bass boost to the +10 dB mark, you're most likely setting your sub up for meltdown. I'd personally set to LPF closer to 80 or 100 Hz. But before doing that, I'd correctly set up my gain.

1) Turn the gain on the amp all the way down (by "down", I mean so that the sub makes little to no noise).
2) Set up your head unit how you want it (e.g. "Bass = +2" or whatnot).
3) Turn the volume on the headunit to the loudest tolerable level before your speakers start distorting (playing a pure sine-wave track [or pink noise] will make tuning easier).
4) Slowly turn up the gain on the amplifier until you hear the signal clip (you'll know it when you hear it).
5) When you hear the sub start distoring, turn the gain back down so that it stops distorting.

While this is a primitive way to set your gains... It requires the least amount of tools (your ears, fingers, and something to turn the gain knob with), and is quite simple.

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Old 02-04-2006, 05:40 PM   #2
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You did a great job on this, Satyllac!!
Originally Posted by my99sl1
(now now, brandon, didnt your mommy teach you how to share?)
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Old 02-06-2006, 08:49 PM   #3
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Default Audio info

I've compiled a glossary of audio terms, and posted it on my personal(amateurish) web site.

If I may add a note regarding the use of washers. I would suggest the use of star washers, over flat ones. also, avoid using Anodized(black) screws for grounds, as the anodized screw will not conduct as well as nickle etc..
Avoid the use of DRYWALL screws, they are called "drywall screws" for a reason.
When securing a sub cabinet use proper metal screws.
E.C wuz here
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Old 02-07-2006, 10:22 PM   #4
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EXCELLENT car audio resource:

Oh yes and nice compilation!
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Old 02-07-2006, 10:38 PM   #5
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Stock headunits and aftermarket headunit adapters for S-Series
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Old 02-14-2006, 08:06 PM   #6
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Installation how-to for aftermarket HU '95-'99 interiors - thanks Brandon!
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Old 03-24-2007, 08:56 PM   #7
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As i Found out today do not use your rear tire wheel as your ground. From the resistence it have when just running 500rms i managed to melt an inch of the insulation off the ground wire which is 4 awg. And i recommend to use a seatbelt bolt since most of the time that is ran through a thicker peaice of metal.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:01 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by SouthPole1989 View Post
As i Found out today do not use your rear tire wheel as your ground. From the resistence it have when just running 500rms i managed to melt an inch of the insulation off the ground wire which is 4 awg. And i recommend to use a seatbelt bolt since most of the time that is ran through a thicker peaice of metal.
NEVER use seat belt bolts for anything other than seat belts. In case of accident you may be liable.
Always ground an amplifier on the same side of the car as the battery is on.
Use chassis ground and a star washer to "bite" into the metal below your connector.
Don't be afraid to drill a hole for ground screw, just make sure nothing is on the other side of the hole.
Avoid anodized bolts (black metal) they do NOT conduct well.
E.C wuz here
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Old 04-06-2011, 06:00 AM   #9
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Question Grounding a amp

I am on a audio project and just was trying to see what you all thought about this ground post. On my SC1 in the trunk toward the latch there is 4 bolts/ 2 on the left 2 on the right. I had previously used one of them for a ground post. Had a RF 500a2 amp and a Audiobahn 840watt grounded with 4 awg. Now, I know when I originally installed the amps the ground wire I got was roughly 18" and I didn't use it. I instead went to the local hardware store and used 4 gauge home ground wire. It worked since.

Finally, I am upgrading my subs and sub amp now having to use at least 2 awg so I bought 0 gauge but once again the 18" of 2 gauge isn't cutting it so I bought 7.5' more just to run it to that same bolt.

Is this bolt a good idea or should I just get out the sandpaper and drill for once?
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